Tony Stark Policci (00:00)
While attending a funeral for her grandfather, Pepper Anne was introduced to a family member she didn't know existed. This started her on an investigative journey which eventually led her to uncover the story of an imprisoned relative who'd been part of a criminal empire. An empire whose remaining members were never brought to justice and apparently idolized. She was compelled to expose the story and almost immediately,
ran into opposition from people who wanted the secrets to stay buried. For 12 long years, she fought to uncover the truth of the story, filled with twists and turns so dramatic you'd think it was a Hollywood tale. Many times she almost gave up, but through an apparent act of divine intervention, she made one final push that brought the story to fruition. My guest today, Pepper Anne.

stumbled upon an incredible true tale and refused to back down. Listen in as she shares about the family member who, while not innocent, has taken the blame and the people hiding in plain sight that have yet to be held accountable.

Tony Stark Policci (01:39)
Okay, so you just heard the introduction to my incredible guest today, Pepper Anne. Pepper Anne, thank you so much for being here. I am really excited to have this discussion with you today.

Pepper Anne (01:50)
Thank you so much for extending an invitation for me to be here. I am thrilled to be here too.

Tony Stark Policci (01:56)
Okay, so what we're going to discuss today is an incredible story. Like this story of this journey that you've been on for all of your life. This prompting to want to be a writer, how all these things occurred, and it's got so many twists and turns that went from insidious to terrifying to divine intervention. It's an amazing story, but we're not going to give it away.

just yet, I want to start way back. So take me back to the little girl peperan. So tell me about like, where are you from? Where did you grow up? Tell me about your life as a young girl.

Pepper Anne (02:39)
Well, my life as a young girl, I have always had my family around me. All of my cousins, my aunts, my uncles. I've been a very fortunate young lady to have so many amazing people in my life. I grew up reading, I'm sure like a lot of kids, and I had such an interest in it. I had a wonderful childhood. I have loving parents. My family is just amazing. I grew up in central Texas.

And my family mostly still lives in central Texas. like I said, the one thing that I'm very blessed to say that I've had are amazing family members in my life. And they've actually helped shape the person I am today.

Tony Stark Policci (03:21)
I grew up a lot of my life in Texas too. I've lived all over Texas. I actually spent a few summers in the Odessa Midland area working cattle. People would not know that looking at me today, but had blood on my boots and all that stuff. But my mother was a school teacher and she wrote books on how to teach kids to read using the phonetic method.

Pepper Anne (03:24)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tony Stark Policci (03:41)
You and I have something in common in the fact that you shared this love for reading because out of that stemmed this desire to write. Now, can you remember the first time that you thought about wanting to be a writer?

Pepper Anne (03:55)
I it was probably in elementary school because I'd always admired, you know, do you remember when we were kids, they used to have these book fairs and you know, they had, yes.

Tony Stark Policci (04:03)
yeah, Scholastic Book Fairs. That's

where I learned to buy stuff I didn't need with money I didn't have.

Pepper Anne (04:09)
I know me too. I come home and I'm like, I'm gonna get in trouble for this. That's that's actually where my interest for wanting to become a writer. That's when it sparked. And I loved reading just different books, a lot of adventures and exciting, you know, stories. And it was I think it was back probably in the third grade. I remember the third grade being a really big time for me that.

man, I want to write, you know? And I didn't really follow through with it until, you know, many years later, but I'd always had a passion for wanting to write. And I think it started in the third grade.

Tony Stark Policci (04:46)
Yeah, was

there anyone else in your family that was a writer?

Pepper Anne (04:51)
No, no, there's not. Believe it or not, there's not. I do have an aunt. I just adore her. She's actually a retired school teacher, but she taught elementary school. And my grandmother was a teacher. And so I think they weren't writers, they really, they made you feel like, know, reading was so important to them because, you know, they taught kids.

Tony Stark Policci (04:52)
No? Okay.

Pepper Anne (05:15)
you know, how to read and write and everything. And so I think that's, I think that's a big part of where a lot of that came from, was from them. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (05:21)
Okay, so tell me

about the stories you were interested in reading. were you most attracted to?

Pepper Anne (05:27)
Do you remember Pippi Longstocking? And Harriet the Spy? I mean, they're so long ago. I loved stories like that. I love stories, like I said, with adventure, something with mystery, something where you get to figure it out, you know? What is, what's going on? Who did it? Why did they do it? Who's behind it? You know? And I've always been drawn to those type of stories, the exciting, entertaining ones. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (05:29)
my gosh, yes.

yeah.

Pepper Anne (05:55)
Those are my two favorites, yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (05:55)
Okay,

yeah, all right. So this gives me a little more insight into where we're going and how you actually got there. The journey that you had in your career, you did a number of different things, working in the state and working with, I believe, medical, you worked for doctors in the medical profession at some point, administrative maybe.

Pepper Anne (06:18)
Yes, uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Tony Stark Policci (06:20)
Okay, but then you wound up doing something kind of just of your own volition because you were interested in it and tell me a little bit about your work with the private detectives. Private investigators.

Pepper Anne (06:33)
Well, had met private

investigators. Yeah. So I had met a lady who had had her own business and she was, she, you know, she was a private investigator and a process server. That means someone who serves papers to people, know, if they're supposed to show up for court and everything. And I reached out to her and I said, I'm kind of interested in learning this. And I did. And so I worked alongside her and

Then the idea of bounty hunting came up and my mom and dad said, no ma'am. So I didn't. That's something, you know, that's, that's something you do when you have absolutely no family in your life, when you're by yourself and you know, so that was, that was not for me, but I love the challenge. I loved being able to, find people to be able to, you know,

Everybody had, there's always a mystery. There's always a question somebody has, know, where is so and so? What do they do? So I love being able to solve the puzzle. So that's what got me into that. And I just loved it so much. I did not become a licensed private investigator. Everything I did, I did at my own discretion. Part of the reason I didn't want to do it, I had followed some of the PIs, you know, and I'd shadowed them.

And there were a few of them who I didn't care for their work ethic. Let me explain. I think when you're trying to get answers, you're trying to find a little bit out, a little information out about people. I think it's okay to you follow them, but if it seems like it might be dangerous, kind of back off. And some of the individuals that I had shadowed went full force and I didn't like that idea.

I don't want to put myself or anyone else in danger. So I think that kind of opened my eyes a little bit and made me realize if there are some situations where I have to do that, I don't want to do it. It's not worth it to me. So.

Tony Stark Policci (08:27)
Now, back when you were involved in this and doing this on your own, did you have an immediate family? I mean, aside from your mother and father, were there other people that you that you love that, you know, made this an ultimate concern for you?

Pepper Anne (08:39)
Yes, but you know what? They completely supported me. Anything that I wanted to do, they were right there with me and they supported me. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (08:48)
Well, you know, there's sometimes there's been times in my career as a writer, I've been I've been asked to work on projects and I knew that if I worked on this project, it would put me at risk because I would maybe bring out information that and this is rare because I'm a copywriter. So most of what I've done in my career is write advertising and marketing, but I've done ghost writing and research writing. And I was actually contracted to work on something around the OJ Simpson case. And

once I got into it, started doing research, I realized, man, this people could come after me for exposing this. And, you know, I had four boys, so I was like, if something happens to me, then what's going to happen to them? So although my family was very supportive, I made decisions about, you know, what I thought was responsible for me in my position of, you know, family leader and provider, et cetera.

Pepper Anne (09:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

You know what, I did the exact same thing. I made the choice to step away from that and not go full force with it because I didn't want to bring that into my personal life. I didn't want to put my family at risk for anything. My family, my media family and everyone on the outside.

family is family to me, whether they're cousins, aunts or uncles, everyone that is in my life is very important to me. And I didn't want to put them at risk of anything. Because let me tell you, a lot of times when you're working as a private investigator or you're working with them, if you uncover something that someone doesn't want told, they'll go to any links to try to keep it from

being exposed. There's a reason why some people have secret lives. They don't want to share that information. And so if you're, if you're working to expose something that someone doesn't want told, you don't know what, you don't know what they're willing to do. And it just wasn't worth it to me. You know, I mean,

Tony Stark Policci (10:37)
sure.

Totally makes sense. So

what kind of things would you do for these private investigators? What kind of research and support would you offer them?

Pepper Anne (10:59)
Well, like I said, I would go and I would shadow them. I would go when they were going to watch individuals, when they were doing digging through research, going through records, trying to ask questions, maybe people that knew them, trying to locate individuals. I was right there. I was right there with them doing the same thing.

I also, like I said, I was also a process server, so I had served papers to people who were supposed to go to court and trying to run from it. So I did that. I did everything, like I said, at my own discretion, I did almost everything that the private investigators did. But I didn't get as close to everything as they did, because like I said, they were licensed and I wasn't.

Tony Stark Policci (11:29)
yeah.

Pepper Anne (11:45)
You know.

Tony Stark Policci (11:45)
But

this was really good training and experience and research and techniques and like word of questions to ask. And as a process server, you're never the person anybody wants to see.

Pepper Anne (11:57)
That's right. Yeah, well,

you know, but with me, they didn't expect me to, they weren't expecting me to be a process surfer. They just thought.

Tony Stark Policci (12:04)
You're the perfect process server, like friendly,

vivacious, bubbly, look, you know, sweet and unassuming, and then you're served.

Pepper Anne (12:11)
Yeah. Yeah.

That's why it worked for me. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? The same with the PI stuff too. When I was going and helping, you know, with some of that stuff. know what? It's probably most often the person you don't expect. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (12:30)
Right. OK,

so as you continued to work with these people, did you develop like a heightened... How can I say this? As you continue to work with these private investigators, did your ability to research and your knowledge of how to do research and your interest in doing research just continue to get better and better?

Pepper Anne (12:53)
It did, yes, because a lot of times you have to work, when you're trying to get court records, when you need some, like, you know, if you're trying to get criminal records or things such as that, you start with the court system. And so I learned what the process was. I'd also gone to the courthouses and I'd met various people. And so I kind of learned the ins and outs of what people look for when they're trying to get information.

different things. So I knew that when I needed to get arrest records or things such as that, I'd go to the district clerk's office. You go through the website for the FBI to get the FOIA records. I knew working with these PIs, what kind of information I would need, what kind of evidence I would want to have to back up what I'm saying.

and just the whole process of it. So yeah, if I hadn't have worked alongside the private investigators, I wouldn't have known where to start. I would have figured it out, but it made my work a lot easier for sure. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (13:56)
Yeah.

So was there ever a moment when you were working that you were in a situation where you were, where you felt, my gosh, what have I got myself into? like, was there ever a situation or something that came up that was like terrifying or even dangerous for you?

Pepper Anne (14:13)
I wouldn't say it was terrifying, but the one moment that caught my attention was when I was shadowing a private investigator. And he actually was a retired detective. He worked for a police department. so he, in his profession, I guess he was used to handling things a lot differently. So following, shadowing him, watching the links he would go to, the way he was driving.

just pushing the limit, going past the boundaries there and everything. It made me nervous because the people, the individuals that he was trying to get information on were fully aware that he was there. And that's the whole point of it. In my thinking, if you are a prime investigator, you want to be discreet. You want to be, you want to

blend with the background. You don't want to be known. You don't want to be seen. Because you're not going to catch someone doing something if they know they're being watched, right? I mean, come on. So and it surprised me because he was he was a retired detective. And I think it bothered me. I think it scared me because you think you're going to learn from someone who knows what they're doing. yeah, that's

Tony Stark Policci (15:15)
Yeah.

Right, right.

Sounds like he might,

sounds like he was a bit reckless.

Pepper Anne (15:37)
Well, I thought he was, you know, I thought he was, yeah. And I didn't want for the individuals to see me and think, well, we can't get him, but let's see if we can find her. And then I thought, well, if that happens, he'll see me with my family. You know, I didn't want to put my family at risk.

Tony Stark Policci (15:53)
Okay, so now we've got this background of you as a kid, always wanting to be a writer, never really stepping into that, doing this work with the private investigators. Take me to the point where these two worlds collided.

Pepper Anne (16:05)
Well, my mom was actually the one who brought this all about. My grandpa Riley passed away, and I'm trying to remember, I think it was in 2006. my heart was broke. I was so close to him. and at his funeral, my mom said, that's our cousin over there. That's Marvin.

And he was an old cowboy, you know? And, cause I have related to, you know, lot of my family members are ranchers and then to, you know, cattle, this, that, the other farming. So she said, he has a son that's in prison. And I said, I got you. We'll stay away from them. She said, well, yeah, but he, he wrestled cattle. So she was trying to draw.

Do you know, do you know when you're around people in your family and you don't know them, so you have someone trying to clue you into who everybody is, you know? And I didn't, I didn't really do anything with it until somebody, I think it was my mom who brought it up again. And it was after the fact. And so then I started doing a little digging, looking online and the world's collided because when I started reading about him online.

and no one on our side of the family knew the whole story. They didn't know the real story of what had actually happened. So once I started researching, reading, that's when my world changed. That's when all of our worlds changed.

Tony Stark Policci (17:32)
Okay, so your mom's dropping these. I don't know if they were hints, if she was trying to lead you somewhere, but you go in, you find out information that is far beyond anything you've ever heard anyone else in the family talk about, or maybe you started sharing some of this information and people were like, well, I never heard that or is how did you find out that there were holes in the story with what your family knew?

Pepper Anne (17:56)
Well, I had asked several family members in my grandpa's generation, my grandparents' generation, my great aunts, my great uncles, and my mom, of course. then nobody really knew the real story. So it wasn't until I started looking, I started Googling him.

I googled him. I thought, let's find out, because nobody seems to know. All they know is we have a cousin who's in prison. He stole a bunch of cattle. He escaped jail. And he is a bad guy. That's all they knew. They didn't know any more than that. So I started digging. And once I did that, that's actually when questions started popping up. And then I said, all right, I'm going to write him.

I'm going to tell him who I am and I'm going to find out if I can get the story. So it wasn't until I reached out to him and started talking to him and talking to other people when the actual story started to come out.

Tony Stark Policci (18:55)
Okay, so at this point, was it just curiosity that was driving you or were you thinking I've got a book in here?

Pepper Anne (19:04)
I was thinking I had a book in here, because I've always wanted to write, you know? I always wanted to write comedy, because I love, I love laughter. I mean, if there's a comedy, if there's a movie and it has comedy, and I'm going to be right there watching it. So I thought that's what I would, that's what I wanted to write. But when I, when I found this, it was so compelling. I couldn't leave it, you know? There were so many questions that were unanswered. And I thought,

Tony Stark Policci (19:09)
Yeah.

Pepper Anne (19:34)
Well, if the people writing the magazine articles can't tell the story, then I'm going to do it.

Tony Stark Policci (19:40)
yeah. So how intriguing this must have been as you went to find something so unexpected and compelling that suddenly you're just completely driven to get to the bottom of it.

Pepper Anne (19:41)
You know?

Actually, I was I was really nervous. I'd never been in. Well, yeah, I was because I've never been inside a jailhouse before. And here I am writing a family member who's in prison and I'm hearing all these stories, you know, reading all this stuff online. And I thought, OK, I'm going to write him. I don't know if he's dangerous. I don't know what to think. I wrote him a letter, introduced myself, and it took him a couple of weeks to write me back because he asked.

Tony Stark Policci (19:55)
Where are you?

Pepper Anne (20:22)
family members that he knew if I was who I said I was, because he'd never heard of me. He'd never heard of any of us, you know. His grandpa and my grandpa were brothers and his grandpa took off when he was a kid. He never met his grandpa and he always wanted to know him. So I sent that letter and I was nervous and I thought he's not going to let me write his story. You know, to me, this was a story that should have been on the New York Times bestsellers list.

Tony Stark Policci (20:26)
Okay, yeah.

So.

Pepper Anne (20:50)
If somebody wrote a book, that's where it needs to be. Because it was all over the media when the events happened at the time. And he gave me the gift to be able to write it. He let me do it. Because I'm family. So yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (21:05)
So after he responded, after he wrote back.

Pepper Anne (21:09)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Stark Policci (21:11)
Like, what, did you go meet him in person? Okay. So tell me about that. How was that? How was that walking into a jail for the first time? I mean, it's, I've been to visit people that are incarcerated in prison and both, you know, in jail and in prison. And it is definitely an experience.

Pepper Anne (21:13)
Yeah, I sure did. Yeah.

you

Mm-hmm, it is. So I was nervous. When I was going to do that, I took my mom with me. And we went to meet family members we had never met before on the trip. And they were telling me what to expect when I went in. I had told them what time I was planning on being there. And visits are usually for two hours.

I went in and I was late. In fact, my uncle, my uncle Perry, he always gets a kick out of this. He always says, cause when I sat down in front of Bob at the visit, he said, you're late. Cause we only had 30 minutes. I mean, we only had 30, you know, it was supposed to be two hours. So my uncle Perry said, well, what else did he have to do? He was, what he have to do in the prison? He was expecting, he was looking forward to that visit. But yeah.

When you hear the doors slam behind you, you get a little nervous, especially your first time in. Yeah, yeah. But I do wanna say the guards, the wardens, everyone within TDC has always been wonderful with me. They've been just amazing with me. Every once in a while, you'll get someone who's maybe not, but yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (22:24)
Yeah, things get very real when those doors close.

So did this start a process, Pepperan, of you making regular visits to get the story from him?

Pepper Anne (22:51)
It did, yes. I started going maybe every weekend, every other weekend. We had something interesting happen during our visits in the middle of me researching. He would tell me and we would correspond. I couldn't take a microphone or any of that stuff in with me. You you go in, have to, you have to, you talk.

You get your information, you go outside, you write it down when you get in your car. Or I would have a recorder and speak into it, you know, on the trip home. But in the middle of all this, within the first year, he was actually transferred to a unit that was farther away from me. And I had requested to have him move closer to me. Now, I'm not an immediate family member, I'm just a cousin. He was in administrative segregation.

which means he was locked up 23, 24 hours a day. But he was farther than 100 miles away from me. So I'd requested to have him move closer to me. It was denied. I reached out to the board members and they asked me to come to an open public board meeting and I did. And they asked the director at the time, Mr. Bill Stevens, to come in and speak with me and...

They had moved him closer to me. It was the first transfer of that type that they'd approved in over a decade and they moved him closer to me. Yeah. So I could continue on with my research.

Tony Stark Policci (24:05)
Wow.

Did anything

change in that from what I understand? You know, the only people that are allowed to bring in even papers would be a legal representative, you know, an attorney. Did anything change after that transfer? Were you able to take in notepads with you or anything? No. Yeah.

Pepper Anne (24:25)
No, no, and I probably

could have gone in as a reporter or media, but he's family. He's my family. And that was first and foremost. I wanted to get the story, but for me, it was important to do it as a family member. And I probably could have done certain things to take them in, but.

I didn't want people to view me as it being a business type thing. I wanted them to remember that this young lady is this family member. And that's first. To me, that was first. Because I wanted to know the story, but I was also getting to know my family. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (25:04)
Okay, so this family member,

he had been presented to you as like a really bad guy. Is that accurate? Yeah. And what was your experience of him once you actually got to know him and you spent so many hours driving to visit him while he was in prison?

Pepper Anne (25:13)
Yes, yes.

Well, he'd done a lot of bad things. He'd made a lot of bad decisions. He'd been around a lot of people. The individuals that he got tangled up with in the 80s would not let him go. think he could have made a lot of better decisions, but a lot of people have come forward and told me that once these individuals came into his life, he couldn't get away from them. And they're very, that's targeted, that's right on.

If you're asking me if I think he's dangerous, are you asking me that? Are you asking me if I think he's dangerous? Yeah, I don't. He's done.

Tony Stark Policci (25:56)
Well, did you feel

like it was dangerous when you went to visit him? Yeah.

Pepper Anne (26:03)
No,

no, I did not, I did not. Some of the crimes that he committed, some of them were heinous, but there's no excuse for it. But no, no, no, I was not and I am not afraid to be around him. In fact, after our interviews, I had family coming up and

saying tell us about him, tell us, you know, we want to know him and it did. And so all the stuff that they were told I had said is not true, you know, you need to reach out to him. He needs, he needs family. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (26:42)
It's a wonderful approach that you took to just be a compassionate human to your family member here. know, I think having been through an awful lot of things in my life, trauma, abuse, drug addiction, know, atheism to becoming a person of faith, having a lot of transformation, seeing a lot of different things, I believe that

anybody is capable of just about anything given the, the right circumstances and the wrong influences. So, you know, I think a lot of people tend to look at somebody that has done terrible things and immediately just mark them off as a terrible person. And there are obviously cases of that. I really firmly believe that there are people who are just

completely evil, whether they were born that way or molded into that. Sure. I think the majority of us have the capacity to do good things, do bad things, and we do different levels of all of those. So your approach is commendable to just be a human. The thing that I'm interested in hearing or the thing I'm interested in asking you now is, so what is this story like?

Tell me what the story is that came out of this conversation. What did you find?

Pepper Anne (28:03)
Well, the one thing that was probably the most important to me is that his rearing, he did not have a good rearing at all. He was raised completely different from the rest of us. If he'd had parental guidance, I don't believe he would have gotten into this. I really don't.

Tony Stark Policci (28:16)
Hmm.

Pepper Anne (28:25)
What I walked away from this story with is that he fell into the life of crime. His father pulled him into it at a young age. He was actually 15 when he started stealing cattle medicine. And like I said, his father was behind that. By the time he was 18, 19 years old, he was pulled into it even farther with law enforcement. And...

when he tried to get out of it and he saw so much money when he was young, he almost didn't want to get out of it, but he did. He wanted to be away from that life of crime. The opportunity that he had to get away from it, there were criminals that stepped forward to pay his bonds. And so he didn't really have a choice. He couldn't get away from it. So to me, the story is almost a tragedy because he fell into the life of crime.

and he had no way of getting out of it. He has lived the life of several men. He's almost like a, he's like an outlaw that you would read about of Jesse James or, you know, anyone from that era, from the 1900s, the 1800s. He escaped jail twice. He's been involved in a shootout. He's stole millions.

Tony Stark Policci (29:36)
Wow.

Pepper Anne (29:41)
of dollars worth of cattle along with other people. He's done everything you can imagine. My takeaway from the story is that had he had a different rearing, I don't believe this would have happened to him. I don't believe it would have. Every time he tried to step out, couldn't. And so, yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (29:59)
Do

you believe that he was involved in any killings? Yeah. Okay. So not everything. He hasn't done everything. like the title of your book, which, you know, is the subject that he is, is the notorious Texas Swinburne, right? Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about what that meant. Like, where did this notorious

Pepper Anne (30:05)
No. No, no, no, no, no.

Hmm?

Yes, yes,

Tony Stark Policci (30:26)
reputation come from. And I love the fact that you have gone into the importance of parenting because that has proven itself over and over again. There are always exceptions, but you know, bar none, I'm 100 % convinced that the influence of a parent and especially, and I don't want to get on a like a moral or a political tangent here, but

The fact that the nuclear family, like the family unit, know, two parents who are involved in both playing their roles and raising the children has been fragmented for decades. It's really shown up in our society in how kids are managing things like, you know, depression, self-identity, know, activities, crime. So it's...

This nurture piece is huge in how somebody turns out. So, you know, I appreciate the fact that you brought that up because, you know, that's something that could have gone a different way. Had his parents, you know.

Pepper Anne (31:32)
I

agree. you know, he and I had had a discussion day before yesterday. I had told him, I said, had any of us on this side of the family known what was going on? If we had known him, if we had known any of this, we would have intervened. The parents didn't do it.

Tony Stark Policci (31:39)
wow.

Pepper Anne (31:55)
But he has cousins on this side, aunts and uncles. Family is so important. You've got to have family. If you don't have parents, grandparents, know what, you have to have that family unit. Someone in your family has to be there. And so I think that's what angers me sometimes. think if we'd have known, if we'd have had any idea what was going on, you know.

I believe, I know, I know we would have intervened. We would have done everything we could if it meant moving him out of the country to get him away from these people. Anything, you know. The story, the notorious Texas Swindler. So he is notoriously known for escaping the jails and, you know, when he was on the run from Grayson County.

Tony Stark Policci (32:35)
Yeah.

Pepper Anne (32:47)
In 2001, he and four other inmates escaped the jail and they were on the run for, you four or five days. Nobody could find them. And so that's where Notorious came from. They were trying to find him, you know, especially during the cattle wrestling. He was notoriously known for doing those, committing those crimes.

Tony Stark Policci (33:01)
Mm.

Pepper Anne (33:08)
The story is amazing. You know, I wrote it. I wrote about the cattle wrestling. I worked with law enforcement. I got their records. Everyone spoke to me, even individuals who were involved in the crimes, who were afraid of the individuals that I'm exposing. They've even stepped forward and they've spoken with me. They've provided information that verifies everything. I've spoken with the victims.

I've spoken with family members and friends. So it's a compelling story. But what's probably most amazing about it all is that he's done so much. It blows my mind to think of all the things that he's, all these crimes that he's committed. I mean, if I committed even one, I'd be afraid to get back out into the world. And here he is. He's just, you know.

one right after the other. I it truly is, it's a modern day Western is what it is. It's something that you would hear about Jesse James or John Wesley Harden minus the killings. There are no killings. It's amazing.

Tony Stark Policci (34:09)
Yeah.

You know,

it's it's fascinating how we look back at some of these criminal stories. The one that comes to mind for me is not a Western, but it's Bonnie and Clyde. And in a way, they were revered as sort of, you know, like heroes, kind of they were legendary. And we look at some of these people in it. And I for me, the element that I think is interesting or why people are so interested in this is that

Pepper Anne (34:21)
Mm-hmm.

Tony Stark Policci (34:36)
The daringness, the adventure, the what appears to be fearlessness, the boldness, you know, not conforming to things. So, you know, when you talk about he just. Committed so many crimes. There's. It's almost like there's this element of. I don't care what happens to me, you know, to me, I think about that as there's a wound there that.

Pepper Anne (35:03)
I agree. Yes.

You know, I'm not a psychiatrist or a counselor, but I know enough to know what I've seen with him. And I think it's almost I'm done. Let's see if this is what does it. Yeah, I agree with you. You know, when he was young, when his parents were going through a divorce. I can't remember. I think he was probably eight, nine, maybe 10 years old.

The judge wanted to have him evaluated because when he questioned Bob on the stand during the custody case, some of his answers were real grandiose. They just didn't match up to what someone his age would say. So the judge said, want to have him evaluated. And the doctor had mentioned that he would have evaluated him and said that he's a liar. He lies. And if it's not handled correctly,

Tony Stark Policci (35:42)
Mm.

Pepper Anne (35:54)
He could go down a path of destruction and end up in jail, in prison. And that's what happened. So yeah. Yeah. So I agree with you. I think that it's almost like I don't care what happens to me. He's tired. He's tired. These people have been in his life and they will not let him go. you know, the family side.

Tony Stark Policci (36:01)
Wow.

Pepper Anne (36:21)
for all of us that didn't know about him. We're protective. We're protective. You know, we wanna, we're gonna stop to this. Leave him alone, get away from him. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (36:23)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, so in the process of this story, obviously, Bob had done committed a lot of crimes, made no bones about that. But you uncovered there were some cover ups, correct? Cover ups in the justice system cover ups, lots of different places. Tell me a little bit about what you what you found out.

Pepper Anne (36:44)
yeah, yes, yes.

Well, like I said, law enforcement in the 80s, they were involved in the crimes with them. It was in Comanche County, Comanche, Texas, in the De Leon area. It's where the DPS state trooper lived and he worked. And so he and several other individuals that he worked with in law enforcement were involved in this. I actually uncovered a crime ring.

before Bob ever came into the picture that this trooper was involved with and other individuals in law enforcement in that area. And they pulled other people in, just random people. And they got away with it. They got away with their crimes. So it was a pattern. Yeah, so that happened.

Tony Stark Policci (37:34)
This corroborated

that, like you had already found this evidence before we were on this story. And then you connected the dots. like, my gosh, this has been going on for years.

Pepper Anne (37:39)
Mm-hmm

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's how the law and for the individuals that I exposed in law enforcement, that's how they were able to get away with it. There were crooked judges. There were dirty judges in the case. And then and then, of course, when Bob went to court with the DPS state trooper. So let's see if I can remember this. the DPS state trooper was charged with tampering with a witness.

because he had threatened to have Bob killed if he didn't lie on the stand and say he wasn't involved in it. And I came across a transcribed recorded conversation between Bob's father and the DPS state trooper where the trooper said I'll have him killed if he doesn't lie on the stand and say I wasn't involved. I put that in the book. So he was charged with tampering with a witness. The judge adjudicated the sentence, it was,

Tony Stark Policci (38:24)
Wow.

Pepper Anne (38:35)
a felony, but it was reduced to a misdemeanor. And I tied that judge into the previous crimes with that trooper before. I mean, he was on the bench when all this stuff happened with the previous crime ring. So I connected the dots, just like you said. Yeah. And it just went from there. It was from the beginning and it was throughout the story.

Tony Stark Policci (38:55)
Wow.

Pepper Anne (39:02)
There were individuals in law enforcement who were amazing with me when Bob escaped the Grayson County jail. They were in no way connected to any of these crimes. So there were some individuals in law enforcement throughout the story who were very crooked. And then there were some in law enforcement who were upstanding law men and women and they followed everything the way they were supposed to.

I want to make it clear, not everyone in law enforcement in my book was crooked, you know. I exposed the woman that Bob married when he went to prison the first time for crimes he committed.

Tony Stark Policci (39:42)
Sure.

Pepper Anne (39:45)
The only thing I can say is read the book. Because she's, she's birds of a feather flock together. You know, heard that? Yeah, yeah. Very crooked. She was involved in the cattle wrestling scheme. She oversaw them and they had a party ranch. Like I said before, it had individual step forward.

Tony Stark Policci (39:54)
Right.

Pepper Anne (40:10)
speak with me. There were people who went to this party ranch wanting to enjoy the ranch style amenities for the weekend, you know, and people that had money were the ones that were invited to go and then they were caught in uncompromising positions and then they were later blackmailed.

Tony Stark Policci (40:30)
This sounds like a Texas version, a cattle ranch version of a Jeffrey Epstein story.

Pepper Anne (40:37)
I guess it does. I guess it does. Yeah. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (40:38)
Yeah, same

kind of things going on. And I imagine that.

Pepper Anne (40:42)
But there weren't children

at this party ranch. I think Epstein there was. I want to be very clear about that. Yeah, but there were...

Tony Stark Policci (40:48)
Okay.

Yeah.

But was the same kind

of thing. People would go there for, let's say, adult entertainment or to, you know, to kind of sow their wild oats or whatever. And most of them were then put in compromising positions, which could be used against them in black, and they were blackmailed.

Pepper Anne (41:12)
That's true. Now, some of the individuals who went to the ranch didn't go for that. They went because they wanted to be a part of ranch-style living for the weekend. And then after hours, they were told, hey, we got something extra for you over here. And those that wanted to attend that did. Not everyone did, but the ones who did, you know. Yeah. But like I said, there were no children there. I want to be very clear on that.

Tony Stark Policci (41:21)
Okay.

I see.

Yeah.

So.

Pepper Anne (41:39)
at that. Yeah. The individuals that I have exposed are tied in with children's organizations.

Tony Stark Policci (41:39)
Got it.

Pepper Anne (41:47)
in some way or other. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (41:48)
And

so these and when you say children's organizations, I'm you're talking about not established organizations like would it be trafficking, something else like that?

Or how would you define it?

Pepper Anne (42:04)
don't know that I would say that. The ex-wife, she had all kinds of charges, federal charges against her. She should have gone to prison. We all believe that the woman was going to go to prison and she didn't. You have to read the book to understand how she didn't.

Today she works with ABBA fund, which is tied in, it's part of an adoption agency. So to me, that sounds kind of funny. A woman who was running a party ranch and doing a lot of cons with cattle and going to the banks and getting loans. And now she's working with a children's organization overseeing their finances.

That doesn't sound very legit to me, does it to you? That raises a lot of questions. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (42:54)
Well, yeah, definitely

a lot of room for nefarious action there. So.

Pepper Anne (43:00)
Yeah, yeah. You know, I don't,

yeah, I just think it's important to state what's going on today and let others kind of figure out the rest.

Tony Stark Policci (43:09)
Right. Was there a moment during this investigation and writing this book when you uncovered a hidden truth that kind of left you speechless?

Pepper Anne (43:20)
Well, there were a lot of moments like that. Yeah. I think it was probably from the beginning. It was almost like every chapter there was something that popped up. There was so much crookedness in the story. There was so much deception. I couldn't believe it, you know?

I think probably one of the most shocking things for me was to find out, like I said, the individuals he got tangled up with in the eighties, how determined they were to not let him go. You know, the individual I exposed who broke Bob out of jail the first time had made a statement to a family member, not to me, but to another family member and Bob.

Tony Stark Policci (43:50)
You

Pepper Anne (44:07)
that if the story, and this was mentioned many, many years ago before I ever took the project on, because other people have wanted to write the story, you know, and they'd start and they'd stop. But this individual had made a statement and they had said that if the story ever comes out, they could make a car wreck look like an accident. So, you know, there is that. While I was working on the story,

and it took me probably 12 years to write it because I had to continually rewrite it over and over again. There was an individual who tried to steal the story from me and they wrote their own backward version. And that individual is actually tied up with the individuals I exposed. When I first took the project on,

There was an individual who I exposed in the book and I put this in the book, I included it. They met with me and they wanted to know who I was putting in the book. They wanted to know if they could write the story with me. They wanted to oversee everything that I was putting in the book. They wanted to co-author it with me. And I told them, no, absolutely not. I don't know you. I'm not gonna do this with you. This is something that as a family member,

I and other family members want to know the truth and I'm not about to pull somebody in I don't know anything about to do a story and stop it. yeah, and that individual that had approached me was actually tied in with the individual who wrote this other one and tried to beat me with getting my story out.

Tony Stark Policci (45:47)
Wow. So all of these people that were involved, mean, tell me what is it that they're trying to protect? Is it reputation? Is it prosecution? Like, what were they doing? Like, what is this whole story about this tangled web of crime and, you know, blackmail and everything?

Pepper Anne (45:48)
So, yeah.

If their name comes out, it would ruin them. It would ruin them. It's someone who is idolized by many. Yeah, persecution. They would have to, I mean, you would hope, serve time for their crimes. It would show who they really are. It would ruin them. It would expose them. Yeah, it's...

Tony Stark Policci (46:29)
And so tell me

like, did they, they, did they.

I'm going to start that over because too much stuttering, have to delete that.

So tell me, at some point these people found out that you were working on this and you had multiple attempts at sabotaging what you were doing. Tell me a little bit about that.

Pepper Anne (46:53)
Well, it started in the very beginning. So it was the fella who met with me. He met with me probably, I can't remember. I can look back and double check, but I think it was probably three weeks into the project when I decided to take it on. Yeah, at the very beginning, he met with me and he said, let's do this together. And I said, no, we're not. It was then. Now,

Tony Stark Policci (47:07)
Okay, right at the beginning.

Pepper Anne (47:20)
When I had said no, I wasn't going to do it. And then I had to get my literary attorney. I'd had a different one at the time who I started with. Now I the one I'm working with. just love her to pieces. But I had my literary attorney at the time help me get the proper paperwork in order so that I could legally write the story. So I have the rights to the story and I'm also Bob's power of attorney. But it was...

Probably within a couple of weeks, we noticed the lug nuts on our tires were loosened. Yeah, and it was bad. Several family members had experienced that. They had tried to make a car wreck look like an accident, I guess. Then the farther I got into it, my work was deleted.

Tony Stark Policci (48:07)
Yeah.

Pepper Anne (48:13)
from my computer. I opened up an email and a virus had hit it like that and everything was gone. Instances, things like that, it just happened. I have a friend who works on my computer who is always there if I have a question, even in the middle of the night, God bless him, he's there. And he said, yes, somebody got in here. Somebody did this on purpose. So yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (48:36)
And you hadn't.

Pepper Anne (48:36)
From the very beginning,

they've tried to sabotage me. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (48:40)
I believe you mentioned to me offline that you had multiple deletions.

Pepper Anne (48:45)
I did. I did. So I had to rewrite the story three times. So twice. It was, it was deleted twice. Yeah. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (48:52)
Yes. Okay.

So did you get, did we get to the point where you were just frustrated through your hands up there and like, I'm done. I'm not going to this. I'm, I give up.

Pepper Anne (49:02)
Yes, every time it happened, but I wasn't actually done and finished with it until the final time that my work was deleted. And I slammed my laptop down and I said, that's it. I was working part-time at a hospital gift shop just to kind of break the monotony of writing because there were times when it was too much, you know?

I had become very close to a lot of the victims. There's a shootout at the very end of the story that Bob was involved in and he released the married couple that were held hostage in their home. They were, uh-huh, yeah. Yeah, he released them and became very close to them. It was a husband and wife and all of their kids and everyone. And Vincent was the husband who was held hostage.

Tony Stark Policci (49:25)
Yeah.

Just holding them hostage. Okay.

Pepper Anne (49:50)
And he would always call me and he'd say, how's everything going? How's it going? You got to get our story out there. You're the only one we're talking to. And so I felt compelled. I felt compelled to tell it. So the last time that my work was deleted, I said, this is, can't do it anymore. And I went to work and then probably within 20, 30 minutes of arriving, there were three different people that showed up within 20 minutes of each other. And

They couldn't explain why they were in the hospital gift shop, but they felt compelled to pray for someone and they were craving a Coke. And it was just, the way that it all played out, I just thought, how many more times am gonna have to go through this? You know?

Why is this happening to me? That was the last and final time I had to rewrite it though. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (50:40)
So these

three random people showed up, talked to you, said each of them, not knowing each other, said, I was told to pray for someone.

Pepper Anne (50:45)
Hmm?

Mm-hmm.

Yes, so the first lady, yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (50:56)
And after talking

to you, they realized that it was you.

Pepper Anne (51:01)
Yes. The first lady that came in, she actually, her daughter was in a hospital on the other side of town and she was from North or South Carolina. I can't remember which one. And she said, I don't know why I'm over here. She said, I don't know. She said I was just out driving and I, something just said to get in the turning lane. And she said, and I just pulled in here. She said, I have this, I have this

Feeling that I'm supposed to pray for someone and she said I'm craving a coke She said instead of going to the cafeteria something led me in here into the you know into the gift shop I told her what happened to me. Just you know, I was frustrated. I didn't realize at the time it was it was me You know, it's a hospital people need prayer in a hospital and She was led right to me and she said honey

Tony Stark Policci (51:49)
Right.

Sure.

Pepper Anne (51:56)
I'm supposed to pray for you. I told her everything. And she said, you've got to write it. You got to get back on it. And we went to pray and she prayed. She left probably within another maybe 20 minutes. An ICU nurse from upstairs was craving a Coke. She hadn't had a soda in years.

She got on the elevator instead of going one direction for the cafeteria. She turned to come into the gift shop and she said something, just told her she walked right up to the counter and she, she told me, she said, I'm craving a Coke. They wanted Coke. They wanted Cokes. I wonder if that's God's favorite drink. don't know. And, yeah. And, and, and it was the same.

Tony Stark Policci (52:37)
So funny.

Pepper Anne (52:46)
Same thing, she said, I quit drinking sodas years ago and I'm craving, just, can't get it out of my head. I felt like I needed to come down here and pray. She said, I was working, I was in the middle of writing reports and something just stopped me and I got on the elevator and here I am.

You know what? If that's not a sign to keep going. I mean.

Tony Stark Policci (53:13)
So there were three people that came that day? Okay.

Pepper Anne (53:15)
there were three people after the nurse

left there was a gentleman that came in and yeah he said it's he did and he kept looking at me and he kept looking at me and he he said i want to i want to pray and i said go ahead and i bathed my head and he winked after he paid he started to go he turned around looked at me and winked and walked off

Tony Stark Policci (53:21)
You want to coke too?

Interesting. Yeah. Okay, so.

Pepper Anne (53:45)
I get emotional.

I get emotional because, you know, if that's not God saying this is for you, I don't know what is, you know? Yeah, I know. I know.

Tony Stark Policci (53:48)
awesome

It's very powerful. I it's undeniable.

I think there are people that would deny those kinds of things, but that's just foolish in my judgment. So you got back on and this is when you finish the story after this.

Pepper Anne (54:06)
I would call my family.

I made a couple of phone calls. I called several family members. I said, you're not gonna believe what happened. And they said, when you get off work, you get home, you started again. And I did, I did.

Tony Stark Policci (54:20)
And

how long did it take you to finish from that point?

Pepper Anne (54:24)
You know, I don't even know. can't even remember because there were so many things that happened. I think, no, I think that because I had to start over, but I remembered the important parts and I was able to get back on it and get going. It took me months. Let's see, I'm trying to remember. I think it took me probably, I want to say eight months, seven, eight, because I had to start over.

Tony Stark Policci (54:28)
Was it months? Weeks?

Sure, yeah.

Pepper Anne (54:51)
It may not have taken

me that long. my editor, by the way, I have the best editor. His name is John and he's been with me from the beginning. So every time I'd say John, he'd say, don't tell me this, you know, was deleted. So I send it to him and he'd send it back to me. So the whole process, I think it probably took me seven months.

somewhere between six to eight months from when I had to restart it, send it to him and then to publish it and get it to my PA. Yeah, I just remember working night and day. I looked like a crazy woman. I looked wild because I was sitting there at my dining room table and I have...

I have house trained rabbits in my home. They're litter box trained. It is. It is. And the first one I got, there's three of them, is Dennis, Dennis Hopper. And he is a ringleader. And I would be up in the middle of the night in the dining room. I close rest of the doors in the house. I don't want to wake anybody else up, you know.

Tony Stark Policci (55:46)
That's unique. Yeah.

Pepper Anne (56:08)
And he would be right there in the kitchen. I'd have the light on and I would start working from six o'clock in the evening. You know, we're during the day, but six o'clock in the evening to one, two in the morning. And he got where he wanted me to turn the lights out. So he'd start thumping. He'd thump his feet because he wanted me to turn the lights out. He wanted me to go to sleep so he could sleep. And so it's humorous. It's funny because, you know,

Tony Stark Policci (56:29)
Yeah. Okay.

Pepper Anne (56:36)
It affects everybody. You know, the life of a writer, I guess.

Tony Stark Policci (56:44)
Right. Yep, for sure. Okay, so you you finish the book, you publish it, and then what happens?

Pepper Anne (56:51)
Well, I'm trying to beat the other individual who was trying to get his story out, the people that I exposed, they wanted to put their own version of a story out there. So there was fear. There was a lot of...

I was nervous. I was nervous because of how hard I'd worked on the research, the book, the writing that my book was not gonna be seen because of these individuals. So there was a rush and I got a PA, Laura, to help me and she actually got it where it needed to be. She edited.

it in the, you know, in the format, she formatted it and we got it out. I think once she got her hands on it, it was out within probably two or three days. I mean, the lady is amazing. She was working around the clock. I got it out and the minute it hit, I started reaching out to see if I could do book signings and I started going and I didn't stop. I didn't stop.

I kept marketing and trying to get it known, you know.

It's been a long road. It's been a long road.

Tony Stark Policci (58:07)
So the people that you exposed in the book, the people that tried to stop this, was there any backlash at you once this thing was actually out there?

Pepper Anne (58:16)
Yes, yes. Yeah, the events that I have set up, I've been to libraries, I've done various programs tied to my book. I have been invited on panels to speak with other authors. I've done book signings and these individuals show up, they just randomly show up at these events. I've received, they've corresponded with me.

telling me you're gonna be at this place, we wanna meet with you. I just send it right on to my attorney. I always have, you know, that's the thing. If I'm by myself at these events, it's different. Let's handle this. But if my family members are with me, I'm different because you become very protective of them. Friends or family, you just don't want them to be put in harm's way.

You just don't. So there has been a lot of kickback from them. I, you know, the story's out there. I don't know what they think they're gonna do to me. It's already out there. If anything happens to me, people will know where to look.

Tony Stark Policci (59:18)
What?

I want to ask you two questions about this book. So number one is why should somebody read this story?

Pepper Anne (59:32)
I think so.

Tony Stark Policci (59:32)
And

sorry.

Pepper Anne (59:35)
I was gonna say, I think everyone should read the story because it's engaging, it's exciting. Every chapter is a cliffhanger except chapter two. It's about family. It's maybe four pages. People should read it.

Tony Stark Policci (59:48)
Well, you've got like

a ton of five star reviews on Amazon, amazing reviews about the book. So absolutely, I think that's unanimous from readers.

Pepper Anne (59:58)
They, yes, you know what? I'm so honored when someone takes the time to read the book and what a gift it is. I'm just, I'm blown away the fact that someone takes the time to write a review. I mean, it's just amazing. I've had people email me and they've said, you're my favorite author. When is your next one coming out? I never dreamed that would happen. And I respond to them because they took the time to write me.

and I want to respond, you know, that's important. I want people to read the book and I want them to read the index because the index is about 22 pages long and everything I say in the book is backed up by everything I have. I want them to see that what I'm saying is true. I wrote this because I wanted to make sure if people hear the story about my family member, I want them to know.

what actually happened. And that's why they should read the book. Because it's true.

Tony Stark Policci (1:00:59)
Do you want to tell us Bob's full name or do you want people to go look at the book to find that out?

Pepper Anne (1:01:03)
I'll tell you his full name. I'll tell you why he was named that. His full name is Bob Harold Leach. It's not Robert, it's Bob. He actually was named after two well-known ranchers here in Texas, very well-known respected ranchers. Bob is, it was a family friend, someone that Bob's father was very close to.

Tony Stark Policci (1:01:07)
Okay.

Yeah.

Pepper Anne (1:01:30)
And he thought a lot of him. And then Harold is mine and Bob's great uncle. It's his name. He is our grandfather's half brother. And both of those gentlemen were well known and respected cattlemen in Texas. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (1:01:48)
Got it. So what do you hope that readers will take away from the notorious Texas Swindler?

Pepper Anne (1:01:56)
I hope that I hope that I'm not trying to sway anyone in one direction or the other. I just hope that they walk away from the book thinking this is something that no one ever considered. And it's a story that most definitely deserved to be told that I told it from from an angle that no one else has ever considered. I hope they enjoy my writing enough to want to read more.

And I hope that it sparks some interest where people will look into the story and maybe want to do a little investigating. Maybe, you know, I mean, any kind of good positive interest that I get from it, if someone reaches out to me and, you know, wants to do a little digging, I wouldn't be against it. If it's the right people.

Tony Stark Policci (1:02:32)
Yeah.

So.

So 12 years, a lot of hard work, a lot of travel, like intimidation, the threat of bodily harm. If you had to do it all over again, knowing what you know now and the dangers that you and your family were exposed to, would you do it again and why?

Pepper Anne (1:03:13)
I would. I would. Because Bob's story deserves to be told. And so does ours. Yeah, I most definitely would. You know, I've met some amazing people while working on this book. I've been places I never thought I'd go. It's opened doors for me. I've learned my strengths. I've learned my weaknesses. I've learned things that I enjoy doing and I'm really good at.

And yeah, yeah, it was worth it to me. I would do it again.

Tony Stark Policci (1:03:48)
Well, you know, the thing that I think is the coolest is this lifelong dream that you had that for whatever reason you kept putting off. It's like God put an opportunity in front of you where it was so compelling that you could no longer ignore it or make excuses or whatever got in the way before. so now you're a writer and you've written a book that is

being widely praised and well received so What's what's next for you?

Pepper Anne (1:04:24)
Well, I have some other stories that are non-fiction and they're also crime related that I'm researching and it's gonna take a little time to put them together. So in the meantime, I'm actually putting two crime fiction series together and they're inspired by actual events and those are what I'm working on now. The first one is the Penny Pearl Mysteries.

And the next one is a traveling tootsies. So I'm hoping that, you know, to put those out and maybe it'll give folks, yeah, right, very country. I didn't realize this until this morning that Penny Pearl just sounds so country. It's like Mini Pearl, isn't it? I didn't even connect it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's actually based in the 80s.

Tony Stark Policci (1:04:57)
great titles.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pepper Anne (1:05:11)
So I'm bringing some of that back, some of the humor back. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I guess I could put, I guess I could introduce Hee Hawn. I never thought about that, but yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (1:05:13)
There you go. my gosh. Yee

Gloom, despair and agony on me. Deep dark depression, excessive misery. I can't believe I still remember the lyrics to that song. My dad used to watch that show, I think every Sunday. But you know, true crime is a largely popular genre right now. And so is, you know, crime fiction. So this is a perfect, your book is a perfect topic.

You know, because it's this true story that weaves in all of this intrigue, some, you know, like mystique and even maybe a little bit of romantic obsession with this, you know, criminal character. I think it's fantastic. know, Peppera, tell me, how can people find out more about you? The book is on Amazon. Tell me a little bit more about where people can find the story.

Pepper Anne (1:06:09)
My website is actually a perfect place to learn a little more about me. It's pepperanoauthor.com and I have everything on that website. You can imagine. My book is available everywhere. In fact, it's not available in bookstores because I'm an indie author. And so it's still kind of hard to break that barrier there, but it's available in bookstores online.

Tony Stark Policci (1:06:26)
Okay.

Pepper Anne (1:06:33)
on their online stores, if you can believe it. It's also, it is on Amazon. It's in various countries all over the world. It's been, you know, it's been translated into multiple languages. So it's all over the place. One thing I'm most proud about is it is in most libraries across the US. And that's because I...

Tony Stark Policci (1:06:47)
Wow.

Pepper Anne (1:06:55)
I drove my PA, Laura nuts because I emailed every library in the United States and I asked if they wanted a copy of my book. And I said, this is where you can buy it. And I CC'd her on every email. So I would work at night and she'd wake up the next morning and she'd have 50 emails in her inbox that she was CC'd on.

Yeah, so it's in libraries as well, too.

Tony Stark Policci (1:07:24)
That's

a brilliant strategy and a great tip too for anybody who's listening and wants to get their book out there. Yeah, that's great. Okay. So I'm going to spell, I'm going to put the link to your website below for anyone, matter what platform you're on. But if you're just listening right now and you don't have the ability to go look, it's P E P P E R A N N E author, A U T H O R dot com. Is that correct? Okay.

Pepper Anne (1:07:50)
That is correct. That is correct.

Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (1:07:52)
and give us the full title of the book, please.

Pepper Anne (1:07:55)
It's called the Notorious Texas Swindler, the mastermind behind the Grayson County Five.

Tony Stark Policci (1:08:01)
Pebran, I appreciate you. I have one other question to you right now. In your writing and what you've done, you know, this is the Hero Up Show. I really bring people on because I want to listen to people's stories of being the hero in their own life and in their business. And you have stepped up.

to be the hero that's telling this story that needs to be told that otherwise would have never been told. And your story sheds light on people who would have continued to remain obscure and in the darkness and perhaps gotten away without ever having had any kind of accountability. Even if nothing ever happens to them, at least their secret is out there. I see you as a hero for doing this. Who else do you want to be a hero to?

with what you're going, with what's coming next.

Pepper Anne (1:08:52)
You know, I want to tell a story that someone may have that hasn't been told yet. Someone who feels comfortable enough to tell it and they're looking for someone to share it with. I will say this. A lot of the victims that I've spoken with, and I have not talked to all of them, there are a lot, and I was very respectful of people when I would interview them.

and I approached law enforcement before I approached the victims. Like I said, you have to be very respectful of people. I saw a healing with some of these individuals because they were able to talk and share their story. And I would like to be able to share another story that maybe hasn't been told or if it has, in a different light.

And if it helps someone with healing, that would just be amazing. Because when you see people heal from something and they go on, it makes you feel like your job was worthwhile, that you did the right thing. And I know I did with this book. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (1:09:58)
That's that's wonderful. All right. So you heard it, folks. If you're listening out there and you've got a story that needs to be told, reach out to Pepper Anne. Maybe she will find that that's of enough interest to take it on and work on it with you. Is that a fair thing to say?

Pepper Anne (1:10:16)
Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Contact me. Email me. Sign up for my newsletter. It's on my website. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (1:10:22)
And that, yeah,

that could be done on the website. So go to the website, sign up for the newsletter, pay attention to what Pepper Ann's doing, get the book, links will be below. And Pepper Ann, I wish you nothing but the best and congratulations on making that lifelong dream come true. And I'm really excited to see what you do going forward. Thank you for spending this time with me today.

Pepper Anne (1:10:41)
Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I had a blast.