Tony Stark Policci (00:05.158)
All right, everyone. Hey, thank you so much for tuning in to check out this interview today. I'm really excited because I have an amazing woman that I'm going to be talking to. This is Mandy Odette. She is a incredible copywriter and a fantastic musician and just an overall amazing human being who I've had the pleasure of working with now for a couple of years.

Mandy is one of the people who I am blessed to have on my team as Copy Avengers, but she also writes copy for a number of other businesses and individuals. And so we're really excited. Well, we, me, I'm really excited to just have you on today, Mandy, and find out about you, about your story, and just get to know you a little bit better and for our viewers to get to know you. So how are you doing today?

Great. Thank you, Tony. Awesome. And you're in a really wonderful location. Do you want to tell us about where you're at or is that something you want to cover later on? Sure. I'll tell you where I am at. I am at a place called the Shidoni Art Gallery and I don't know, here's one sculpture. It's a sculpture garden, really. It's out in Santa Fe. It's in Tezucay, just north of Santa Fe.

And, I, I wanted to do the interview here for a couple of reasons. One, cause I like to be outside and walk around. And two, because this is kind of one of the first, you know, locations for when I start first started getting writing when I moved to New Mexico in 2008. I guess, you know, my copywriting journey is, I don't know whether it's the same as anyone else's, you know, I was just kind

into English and writing and things like that, you know, in high school. And I have an English degree and then I moved to New York and I was a proofreader and an editor for five years. But then I wanted to start a copywriting business, you know, it was something that was just sort of under the surface. And so when I moved to New Mexico, I got started, you know, really hanging out my shingle. And so I don't know, sometimes

Tony Stark Policci (02:25.568)
Like a lot of people, when you want to get started with a new business, you don't know where to start. You know what I mean? Right. And so, so I was just, I was just making things up. You know, I was just, I don't necessarily have, you know, I didn't have a place to start. And so I was just looking around, trying to find ideas and stories. And one thing I noticed about Santa Fe and New Mexico is there's so many artists, you know, it was just so interesting that there's just, people are constantly

you know, doing cool artwork and they always have a story behind it. And they're always, you know, when you start interviewing artists, they will just go into like the materials that they use, how they got inspired and stuff like that. So one of the first things I did before I even had a career is look at this thing. What the heck is that? Yeah. Interesting. One of the first things I

was start a blog called Art Field Trips. And it was almost like I was just going on field trips and going to studios and meeting people and interviewing artists and just finding out what they're like, you know? And I think that, you know, kind of leads to one of the things that I do well and that, you know, that I bring to the table as

I'm really interested in people and their creativity and what makes them tick. You know, I just love talking to people and writing about what makes them so awesome. You know, I'm real, like an intense people person. And so when I started writing about artists, I really got to appreciate that, you know, just get to know what makes all these people special, what makes their art special. And, know, when they're talking about their art, they get, you know, get to talk about

creativity and what inspires them. And that was pretty great. anyway, so that was like a recreational start to my writing career, you know, but it really ended up being a lot of, know, a lot of feature articles about people. then I found a client, you know, I just met her at a, chamber of commerce event. I was walking around, I had a brand new baby.

Tony Stark Policci (04:47.982)
I got to tell you, my children are very attractive. just very cute. were, you know, take it. had a baby with Calvin. was, he's 14 now he's bigger than me, but at the time he was just this adorable baby in a stroller. So I'm walking around trying to be professional, even though I've got a baby. Right. And so this, photographer was there. name is Michelle stump. And she was really one of my first, my first clients.

And she, she was almost like, out of the way, let me see this child. So funny. She's always just wanted to see my baby, you know, bring him. And she wanted to get to know me because I had this cute kid that she wanted to see. Anyway. So she wanted me to write about her business, which was she's a photographer and she's taking pictures of the beautiful landscape, New Mexico, just gorgeous, you

She made them into cards and postcards and things like that. And she, she wanted me to write a press release about her business. And that was where I got started, you just writing was your first client? She was your first client? Yeah. Yeah. The first client, she wanted me to write press releases about her artwork. And while she was, you know, taking pictures of nature, then she started taking pictures of, of art and

of sculptures and do her Photoshop magic with them and turn it into like these, I don't know. It's just, she just turned into this other worldly image. so, so I started writing press releases and then she took those press releases and she got a showing in a gallery and that led to writing about the event and that led to something else, you know, just sort of

Was exciting because everything we did together led to something new, something bigger. Yeah. Yeah. Everything we did led to something bigger. You know, at first she just wanted a short little blurb about her, her cards, just to get people to, to come in and buy them, you know? And she, she took every, every success and turn it into something bigger. She, when she got the first article published in the newspaper.

Tony Stark Policci (07:15.285)
She brought it to an art gallery and she proceeded to get herself a solo show. And then from the solo show, she brought that to the Shidoni Gallery and she started meeting people there and she started partnering up with other artists. And then she turned it into this other thing. And so it was, it was fun to work with her because I could see she was getting results and I could also see just.

You know, the fun you can have with your business, you know, when you meet other people. And when you, you take one success and you, you turn it into something else, you, you make something bigger out of it, you know, right. You multiply it. Yeah. Yeah. So this, let me see if I understand something, Mandy, this should only gallery where you're at right now. was this a place that you came initially for inspiration and then you found this client.

And then like working with this client actually enabled her to have a gallery showing at this location? I am. Let me see. This is about 14 years ago. So I might have the order backwards. I know I was definitely, I visited it, but I think she may

here independently, you know. I'm not sure whether I met her first or whether I came here first. I know that she wanted me to come here and interview her new partner that she made, you know. I ended up interviewing three different artists and she would just take their sculpture

Tony Stark Policci (09:05.719)
Did I come here first?

Tony Stark Policci (09:14.571)
Yeah. You're cutting out, so we're just going to have to wait till you come back in.

Tony Stark Policci (09:25.153)
I'll go somewhere else.

Tony Stark Policci (09:33.143)
All right. OK.

Well, so this, often do you come to this location just to enjoy the space? And does it give you inspiration? Well, I like to come here to, you know, I'll bring, I've brought my kids here. I like to come and have picnics and lunch and, you know, just look at the yard. How far is this from where you live? Is this close to your home? Yes. 20 minutes away from my

Nice. So, you know, one of the interesting things that I think about when you talk about this, this setting is, you know, really copywriting for me, because I was a professional actor. There's a huge artistic and theatrical element in great copywriting, because I think the best copywriting comes from storytelling. And I don't think that effective copywriting

can actually happen unless we have storytelling and all of the emotion and the human elements. And you mentioned some of these things, you know, when you first got started looking at the artists' stories and their things. So tell me, how does, I know you're a musician, so you've got an artist heart and soul, right? I how does that play into what you do as a

You know, I, let me tell you a quick story because I've been a, a trumpet player for a long time. You know, I was into trumpet playing, but also into writing. And so when I was a child, I started playing trumpet and being in band. And I remember bringing my father out to a jazz concert. And I don't know if you've ever tried to improvise on an instrument. When you first get started, most people, most normal people.

Tony Stark Policci (11:33.323)
get nervous when they do it. You know, you get, you get your music in front of you. And then I think the idea is to look at scales and chords and make something up. And so I was up on stage trying to do that, but I was really nervous. I was like, like a, like a statue, you know, playing. And my dad, he's a, he's a musician too. He played the drums in a band called Better Days Band. did a lot of covers and stuff. So he's

used to playing on stage and he's real, you know, playing drums is real physical. his arms all over the place. so he's like, you're playing trumpet, you need to be waving your instrument around. You need to be showing off more, whatever, you know, he's trying to tell me that I to be strutting around the stage. And I was nervous. I was like, but dad, I can't, I feel like my body is

Like I feel like I'm so nervous, you know? Yeah. Just kind of paralyzed with fear of frozen in place. Right, right. And so and something about memorizing your music, then all of a sudden you you're free to move your body. You're free to move your body. And so when you have memorized, then all of a sudden I found myself, I got my music memorized, I'm improvising and I'm moving my body around. I'm

dang, I wish my dad could see me now, you know, cause I'm waving my trumpet around just like he told me. but I think the same is true with, with writing and with copywriting, you know, a lot of people, they, there's, there's rules and there's, you know, suggestions and stuff, but you need to understand the product. You need to know the person that you're writing about. And then you can have fun, know, once you, once you gain

an understanding of what you're Right. What I hear you saying, you correct me if I got this wrong, but the research is really fundamental to great copywriting. Understanding who you're talking to, what voice you're supposed to use, what the problems, their pain points are, the language that they use, that's really crucial. And once you understand that, then the copywriting is much easier. You could be free. Yeah.

Tony Stark Policci (13:58.167)
We can show off you can sound natural sound like you're having fun. And it takes some time, take some time. have to get some things under your belt to memorize some stuff, you know, so put in some work. don't know. So, this is probably for younger people especially are people that are getting started to take some time. Right. So, you're a photographer client.

That launched you into a pretty good spot because you had some success with her and you got to see her getting results. Fast forward now, this is what, 14 something years ago? Yeah. Yeah. So what other important elements of your copywriting story do you think have made a major impact on your life and your abilities as a writer? Is there one other instance or client that stands

let's see.

or maybe somebody that you studied

That's right. Well, I've, I've studied with the American writers and artists have got a C a circle of success program. And that's, that's, it's kind of like drinking from a fire hose for sure. You know, so early on, maybe I think 2009, I joined that. And so that gave me a really broad overview of copywriting. And, so I studied that and,

Tony Stark Policci (15:34.803)
I've gone to a business to business event in Chicago where I, where I got a deep dive into, into business to business writing. And we were talking about, you know, I think who was there. Bob Bly was there and teaching us all about lead generation. And that was amazing. Steve Slonwhite was there talking about, you know, business to business writing and sales writing and stuff. And Gordon Graham was there and that was pretty helpful. He

writing about, he was teaching us all about white papers. And so I was kind of working closely with him and also Michael Katz was there and talking about newsletters. And so I think even though I've spent more time reading and following, and also Ed Gandia was there too. And he was talking about B2B copyright and case studies. And so I think that was a pretty helpful

time that helped me decide what I'm going to be doing, what kind of services I'm going to be offering, because I really dove into newsletters and emails. And, and also learning about white papers from Gordon Graham was really helpful because he, he taught a lot about, I think people's mindset when they're buying things. Like he, if you've ever read his book, he's got, he's, he's got a website called the, white paper guy and his

book, white papers for dummies really covers it well. But he says with white papers, you know, it sounds like a real nerdy research paper that you're writing, but he's got three types of white papers. And this has helped me tremendously when I'm dealing with, with clients and when I'm thinking about people in their sales process, you know, so the first kind of white paper, they're based on ice cream flavors.

You can look at he'll get his website and get more information about it. That white paper guy .com, but there's three web, there's three white paper flavors, vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry. So vanilla is for people that are about to buy that type of white paper is for someone that's going to buy the product. And that person needs concrete details. You know, they need to know how big it is, how many watts it has, you know, they want to know.

Tony Stark Policci (18:05.153)
Is it going to fit in my space? You know, someone who's serious about buying and that someone at the bottom of the funnel, they want a, a vanilla white paper and that he calls it vanilla because you know what to expect, you know, it's maybe it's a little, maybe it's a little predictable. It's a backgrounder, but it's something that it'll help you make a decision about whether you're going to buy. So it's at the bottom of the sales funnel. Right. And then at the top of the sales funnel, there's chocolate.

And the chocolate, you know, if you think of chocolate ice cream, it's rich, it's satisfying. It's kind of deep. You know, this is for people that they don't necessarily know they're going to, they want to buy something. They want to buy, they have a problem though. And so I think this whole white paper discussion has helped me with my search engine optimization thinking too. So at the top of the sales funnel, you want a chocolate white paper. And that is just where

having an overview of the whole industry or overview of your clients lives, their problems. And you write a white paper that solves a big important problem that they're facing. And so that just goes over, you know, it's like a deep, you know, analysis of this problem. And then maybe at the end, it'll talk about the product.

but it's really problem oriented. And in the middle there's strawberry and strawberry ice cream, you know, it's light, it's fun, it's kind of fruity. I don't know. He makes it sound better when he describes it, but, and that is in the middle of people where they've, know they want to solve the problem and they're kind of, they see that they have a lot of options. They're trying to narrow down their options. And so to help someone in that.

part of the sales process, you write like a numbered list and a numbered list, you know, so the numbered list could be, you know, seven qualities to look for in a copywriter, you know, that's for people that are looking for a copywriter. And then if I were to write it, I would want to make sure that those seven qualities, I have them all. Exactly. Right.

Tony Stark Policci (20:29.933)
Yeah, you know that the concept of this free report, when I started in, you know, copywriting and marketing with my little brother back in 1991, you know, there was this, this concept of this free report, which was, you know, today, we call these things lead magnets, they really were the same thing back and just a different approach, but it was very much followed that format very much, you know, there were compelling

questions that we used to grab people's attention to request the report. And then the report answered these questions. And it highlighted the services, the problems that we solved. So whenever we wrote one of these free reports for a client, the questions all in some way pointed to the person who was the author of the report or was providing the report as the one that had the solution. So I get that.

I love that. would you consider that, well, rather than suggesting this, let me just ask you, what do you think your superpowers are as a

My superpowers

Well, as I mentioned before, I'm a real person oriented copywriter and person. You know, I want to know what people are going through and where they are as individuals. And so if I'm talking to a business and I'm approaching their problem, I'm going to remind them that their customers are people and they have problems. you know, I'll approach it from a personal

Tony Stark Policci (22:16.141)
standpoint. And I think that makes me an effective copywriter because my writing is, is more emotional and it, it really cuts to what people are going through, you know, even if I'm writing about something really technical or hard to understand, I'll still talk about, you know, people like the other day I was interviewing these two clients, I was talking to these two clients. He is an acupuncturist and he has

system of acupuncture that it's kind of, it's kind of hard to explain, you know, the way he was talking, he's saying that he does an test to pinpoint where to stick the needles, you know, he goes through this series of motions with his clients and he can find out where the pain is, where the problem is, and that will help him decide where to put the needles. And so, so of course, you know,

He's got this great product, but he's going, well, I don't know if people are finding my website. And so I was explaining to him and his, his wife, how, how they need to listen to their clients and hear what they're saying and turn that into, into website copy. You know, clients are coming to them and they're saying that they have these symptoms or that they went to the doctor and the doctor didn't listen to them about this. And, know, like listen to.

to how they're saying it and what they're trying to say and turn that into copy, turn that into their content because if their clients say it this way and your website says it this way, then your ideal clients will find you. Right. Yeah. So one of the things that I love about you that I've noticed about you is that you have a high degree of empathy. At least that's my judgment. When in the projects that you've worked on,

that we've worked on together or that you have taken on as part of the work that we've done together, you really dig in and get to know the client and the audience. I mean, to the point of, you know, buying and using the products, which I think is essential. You know, I, you're always buying products too. Right. Yeah. Like, I don't know, we, think we, us marketers and copywriters, those of us that are really serious about this

Tony Stark Policci (24:40.853)
probably the best customers in the planet because we buy everything. But. my God. It's ridiculous. I buy everything. Yeah. I can't really. I think I'm a sucker because I just always, I'm like, wow, that's a great, that's a great email. buy it. I'll it. I'm too easy of a customer. Yeah. Yeah. You know, well, we have to be a product of the product. I I think that in order to really write effectively,

about what it is that we're trying to promote and get other people to invest in. It's like, have to know and believe that that's something worth investing in. At least that's how I am. I've been very selective about the kinds of things I've written over the years. I've turned down some very lucrative projects because I just didn't believe in what was being sold. anyway, that's one of the things I've noticed about you. so to hear

say how much you care about people and their problems, that really lands with me because it's one of the things I've noticed about you too. And one of the reasons that I wanted you to be part of this team is just because of the character and the traits that you exhibited, as well as your skills of copyright. But I think the things that makes, and this will be like a little plug for the copy of Vengeors as an entity is,

Like I think about creating these superhero copywriters and, you know, real superheroes, they save the world and they do a lot of, they have a lot of dysfunction and they destroy things and they knock down buildings and everything else. And I think that with the copy vendors, what I like about our team is that, you know, we're not having ego battles. Like you see in some of the, some of the superhero movies where, know, two guys are like, you know, having

pissing match about who should be in charge in this and that. It's really like we all work together for the betterment of the client and everybody cares about the outcome that we're trying to get for the client. Really the client is the superhero. That is the person that we're all working for. And I love that everybody in our team thinks that way and responds that way. So. Yeah, we're trying to figure out how the client can be the hero. Right, right. There's super qualities.

Tony Stark Policci (27:07.013)
So this is a good segue into, since we're talking about how much we care about clients and how important it to care about clients, I'd like to know what is something about your life, something that you love to do that maybe, we wouldn't notice, you've already mentioned the trumpet, playing with your musician, I know you love to do that, but obviously you love your kids. Is there something else that you love to do in your

that I love to do in my life. like coming to this location and like really enjoying this art and the outdoors is another thing that's very important to you. Yeah, I do like to be outside. I like to explore new places. you know, I tend to be, some people can be really routine oriented. I'm curious. I want to try new things. Sometimes like

goo is my birthday and I was, people were going, what's your favorite restaurant? And I'm like, well, my favorite restaurant is the one I've never been to before. You know, I want to, I always want to try a new thing. So maybe that's like, people have different needs for novelty. Some people want routine and some people want novelty. want novelty for sure. you know, that makes a lot of sense too, because I think one of the most important traits as an effective copywriter is curiosity.

And it's hard to, you know, remain curious if you're not trying new things, if you're not exploring new things. Let me back that up and change this little bit. I don't know how one can go into trying new things or doing new things unless there's a level of curiosity that's always there, right? Like, just so many people get into a box and like, you

There's no, there's no inspiration. There's no passion. There's nothing when you're in the box. So I think being curious is a great trait. So novelty, that's cool. You love novelty. All right. So, what is, is there something that, okay, so your mom, your, musician, you're a copywriter, you're passionate about art and exploring and creating new things. Is there something about

Tony Stark Policci (29:31.081)
that people normally wouldn't guess, that you want to share.

don't get too personal. mean, know, I have like a ridiculous amount of pets right now. Do you, I don't know how that happened is because I moved in as I'm getting married too. So I'm getting, I'm getting married. moved in with, with my boyfriend and I had one dog, you know, I mean, up until usually in my life, I've had one animal.

You know, maybe in the past I've had more than one at like one time I had a dog and that dog gave birth to puppies. And so I had like 11 dogs, but normally I have one pet. so in the middle of the, in the middle of the pandemic though, I got to tell you, I was getting kind of depressed and my kids are getting depressed too. We were bummed out and I was like, but we can't be this depressed. This is bad. You know, I got to do something fast. And so was like, I know.

Let's get a kitten. And the kids are like, yay, let's get a kitten. That'll do it. That'll do it. so we went to get a cat and went, but then, the only cat at the, the only cat there was really old. So we got that cat and, and so it actually has died since then, but we had two cats. And then when we moved in with, my boyfriend, he has got six guinea pigs.

Two cats, five chickens, an axolotl, an axolotl, and he has a dog, and there's a hamster, and what else? Three birds, and a ferret. Okay. What? You guys have like a mini zoo. Like we've, and I'm like, what can I, how can I make this into something that, you know, I was thinking maybe I could have like

Tony Stark Policci (31:31.037)
a blog about pet ownership or something like having a ferret is definitely weird and like we had the ferret and then the ferrets are playing and then we got a new kitten. So it just seems like the circle of life is happening in my house. That's hilarious. So what is this animal? Axolotl? Is that what you said? but the axolotl died. But the axolotl, was like, it's like, look up axolotl. They're the cutest little things. Okay. Yeah.

pink salamanders and they've got these these little feelers coming out of their heads. Yeah. And have smiles. And they're really cute. We'll just like get a picture of an axolotl and we'll put it in the edit it into this movie so everyone can see what they look like. They're so cute and they're so weird. Yeah. So I'm a big lizard and salamander guy. I kind of love those. When I was growing up.

one of the states that I spent a great deal of time in was Texas. And had something there called horned toads. And like a combination of like a toad and a lizard. And I used to catch those things. And I had like a whole bunch of them in my backyard in this giant pen at one point. but yeah, I'm amazed that I've never heard of that creature, especially since I'm so into those. One time my cousin, so I have a cousin, Andy, speaking

Exploring. This is probably where I got my exploring, but you know, cause we used to just, you know, his name is Andy. He's a month younger than me. We live next door to each other and we're double cousins. And so it seemed like we were twins. And so we used to just explore all the time. We'd just go outside and like, we'd be exploring, but we were mostly looking for things like, frogs or toads or turtles. one, one summer.

We saw that we could get turtles. This has nothing to do with copyrighting, but we saw that, you know, across the street from us, there's a side field and they had a, it had a creek in it. There were creeks in there. And so we could see that there were turtles in there, but the creek was deep and we weren't supposed to be swimming in that creek, you know, but we could see the turtle had poking up out of the water, you know, and it was like 15 feet away. How are we going to catch those things?

Tony Stark Policci (33:58.955)
You know, if we try to swim out there, we'll never catch it. And so then another cousin, he, I grew up in this neighborhood where everyone was related to me. so, it's other cousin, Matt. He's older than us. he built us this turtle catching net and it was like a net with like a long, long pole. It was a 20 foot long pole. And so we had this net and we cut ourselves 30 turtles in one day. my gosh.

Wow. It's out there. We're just like, see the head go running. Get it. And then, yeah. And we we put him in a, we put him in a pool and, and we played with him and then we let them go. wow. What a great experience. Yeah. So I don't know. I think we just have a lot of animals because our kids want animals and we want to give our kids to be happy. And so I don't

Well, yeah, that's amazing. I've we've got a couple of cats right now and I'm a little bit tired of those, but I've had animals all my life. So I think maybe I'm just getting old and curmudgy. yeah, know, the house clean if we didn't have so many. That's right. Right. Yeah. So is there anything else that you're like non -copywriting that you're like really passionate about? Like

hobby, a cause, anything.

Well, there's some causes that I'd like to get into that are pretty, you know, haven't gotten into them as much as I thought, you know, but like I would, I could see myself getting into, to writing about, like cancer, you know, helping people with, with cancer or mental health things, you know, just things that have, have, touched me

Tony Stark Policci (36:04.075)
For a while I had gotten myself on the bone marrow registry, just because I thought, you know, back when, when my own mother had had cancer, I thought she almost got a bone marrow transplant. And I thought, geez, that was so stressful. That was so bad. And if there was somebody, you know, that you could match with. So, you know, with the bone marrow, it just seems like such a far off shot.

So sometimes, you know, I thought it would be nice to work with nonprofits that help people that are going through cancer or stuff like that, you know? So I've done a little bit of work with nonprofits, but I'd like to maybe develop my career a little bit more where I'm doing more, I don't know, fundraising letters or letters that are helping people like that. And I think I just, need

focus and concentrate on connecting with people that are involved with those causes. And without sharing too much information, it's completely up to you. I mean, I'm aware of your story and of your parents and things. And I realize that there are things that happen in each one of our lives that kind of inform some of the decisions that we make and the things that we get involved with.

And like the older that I get, the more keen I am about spending more time supporting like things that matter to me, you know? And that's also been a big part of my life as a copywriter is, you know, it's no secret that my brother Joe has a big focus on addiction recovery.

You know, and both of us came from a place where we both had addiction issues. So I've done an awful lot of stuff in that area. And, you know, most people don't know about all of the things that I've done, but I'm very passionate about that and very passionate about, you know, healing and like changing lives, men's lives and things like that. So those are some of the things that, like now I use my copywriting career.

Tony Stark Policci (38:24.733)
And when appropriate, and when there's an opportunity, I use the skills I have as a copywriter to tell stories and to help things. But I also take the money that I make and the income that I make, and I use it to support organizations that matter to me. So I'm judging that you've got some of the same kind of things going on there with the bone marrow stuff and other issues. Yeah, I could tell the story quickly because

You know, sometimes, you know, I can't help but get, sometimes I'll get weirdly jealous of, young adults who they finished college and then they just go to their career, you know, and just everything, you know, they get the wind at their sails and things are just going perfectly. You know what I mean? They're just like, wow, lucky. You know what I mean? Like it's

But I don't know how many people are really like that, but you know, it's like college grads who they just go and they're like, I'm going to work for the firm now. Right. Everything's figured out. And so, I'm actually working on a memoir to kind of explain this a little better, you know, so I've got a lot of the chapters down, but you know, really I was, I was in college. went, I went to Lawrence university. So that's a college that has a music conservatory.

And also as a college. I was attending the college in the music conservatory, you know, as a trumpet student and I was getting a English degree. Right. So, yeah, I was like 20 working in college, you know, and things were going really good for me. Like I was, you know, like a past the upper level jury. was, you know, things are going good with music. Things are going good with writing. And then all of a sudden my mom just got leukemia.

And it was just sudden, you know, she was just, she got, she went, she went into, she had to go to the intensive care unit. She was like stage four. was, it was like, went to even it had been Easter. we, you know, I remember on good Friday, she got real sick in church and she was like, I've never felt like this. And I'm thinking to myself, I think I'm psychic.

Tony Stark Policci (40:41.193)
Because when she said that voice said she has leukemia and I didn't even know what the symptoms of leukemia were at the time. So I think that God was just telling me that she had leukemia, but two weeks later she did have leukemia. And so I dropped out of school, not, not permanently, but I went, I got on a bus and I just went back to Minnesota. You know, I just left it behind and my dad was running a business

You know, my mom and dad were running a business together. They were, they had a sharpening business where they sharpen tools that I would call it a B2B business, you know? And and so I was just like, I'll help you. I'm going to do mom's job. And, you know, I was helping run the business and, and while she was in, in cancer, you know, while she had cancer. Well, anyway, she ended up, she ended up passing away. And

It was like me and my sisters, know, we, she, my mom was always, you know, really encouraging us to go to school. was like important. You know, we were kind of like, you know, nerdy perfectionist kids that just wanted to go to get our college degree. But, but then she died before, before we finished. so last year was just like, just like coasting. like an airplane that, that loses its wheels and has

has to land. it was, it was, you know, finishing, finishing school was, was a challenge and moving on to the next step. But, but things work out, you know, I mean, things don't work out the way you expect them to, you know, but I, it worked out fine. You know, I, I mean, it was really devastating, you know, for me, for my, for my father, for my sisters and everything,

But I ended up moving to New York City, working as a proofreader. then my husband at the time, Quinn, he got his PhD and then we moved to Los Alamos. And that's what brought me to Santa Fe. so it just, you find a way to make it, it's not always, just with.

Tony Stark Policci (43:04.121)
As well, but I feel as my career develops, meeting new people, new things, and also just giving it a shot even before I have like a, even before I have an official

Yeah, I think that's great. You know, an important thing that you said that I know now looking back on, you know, my life is that people plan and then God laughs. It's like, okay, well, that's a great plan. But here's what's really going to happen. Because, you know, I think that, I mean, as you know, I'm a person of faith. And I really believe that our

you know, our lives are divinely influenced and that things happen for a reason. And it doesn't mean that everything that happens is, you know, like what was supposed to happen because we can make choices. But I think that even from those choices, you know, good things can come. And one of the things I've noticed about a lot of young people, and when I say young people, I'm talking people in their twenties, is they're very impatient with

instance of social media and seeing everybody else you mentioned earlier this, know, sometimes we look at folks and be like, gosh, I envy their life. And it's really easy to do that. One of the things I held on to all my life is my dad told me this because my mom died when I was nine. So I didn't really I don't really remember very much about her, but she had this saying and it was never envy another person's good fortune because you don't know their secret sorrow. And yeah.

You know, I've held onto that a lot of times when I've started looking at other people and feeling sorry for myself, because I really don't know what's going on. And ultimately, I think that, you know, everything that we go through in our lives can either help us to, you know, become a better person and really fulfill whatever our mission is here, or it can take us down a path of self -destruction depending on how we respond to it. So I think that our response to whatever happens

Tony Stark Policci (45:19.591)
usually the most important thing as opposed to what actually happens. So. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, you know, when, those things happen, you know, most of the time I wanted to, you know, process it and I realized that it, you know, there's, there's a lot going on when, when things like that happen and happens to people every day, you know, and the type of support that people need is just really astronomical.

And so I don't necessarily know how I would bring that into my career, but it certainly has had a big effect on the way I write and the way I think. And that is important, you know, is I think some young copywriters, they are trying to fake life experience because they haven't had it yet. And I really don't think

you can read your way into understanding what it's like to go through something traumatic. Maybe there's people out there that can do that. But like I don't take parenting advice from somebody who's never had a kid. What do you mean? They're You know, it's like and so many people offer things like that, right? But yeah, all of these things that you have gone through in your life, they do inform your ability to write and relate.

And, you know, at the end of the day, that's really the business that we're in as copywriters is we're in the relation business, the relationship business, the communication business, you know, the understanding and the empathy business. So, and bringing it back to copywriting, can you think of, you know, any tips? No more than three. You probably have hundreds, but like, can you think of any tips that you would offer to somebody who was trying to hire a

Like what are the things they should really look for in choosing someone to write their copy for them? I think I would tell those people to have a system that's an ongoing system for getting to know new copywriters. You know, make it part of their, make it a part of their business. Don't turn it into like a, my God, I need something now kind of thing. You know, sometimes I see a lot of

Tony Stark Policci (47:44.927)
posts where they're going into a room of strangers online or something and they're saying, I need something right now. We got to turn it around right now. And, and I got to find a copywriter to do this project. What do you charge? And it's like, I don't know, you know, that's just, it's just creating a crisis situation. Why? No. And so,

And so other companies, you know, I mean, I suppose there's some extremes, but other companies will bring new writers in and they, think, I think it might be smarter to, you know, don't turn it into a crisis. First of all, you know, kind of plan ahead and just think new writers are coming in, you know, I would think, have create opportunities for new writers to come in and get their toes wet, you know,

Like have some little jobs where a new writer can take it in. So you have an opportunity to try out a new writer. That's kind of low, low risk. Give yourself some opportunities to try out some new writers in a low risk way where you're not, it's not like everything depends on this new writer that you've just met. You know, give them a chance to try it that'd be good for you. And it'd be good for the writers because the writers would have a chance to, do something and have a project where they get results.

And you'd have a chance to try a new writer, but it's not, you know, going to be like your main thing. That way you've got, you know, your senior writers and some new writers coming in. So it's almost like a system. I don't know what would be. So that's a good one to start with, you know, don't wait, don't wait until there's a crisis. Don't hire from a position of being in a crisis for a copywriter because then you don't, it's hard to make a good choice.

Number two, create opportunities to have copywriting be a consistent aspect of your business, just like marketing, just like standard operating procedures. you know, it's like bringing in copywriters and making that a normal natural part of your business, you know, is a process that should be just part of everyday activity. I like that. I don't think most businesses think about that. Only the advanced ones.

Tony Stark Policci (50:12.735)
businesses and entrepreneurs and business owners who understand that copywriting is really the oxygen of your business. But yeah, that's a great tip. And tip number three would be, and here's, I think this is probably an example of a low risk job that you can give a new copywriter is get the new copywriters to, to collect testimonials and interview your customers. Maybe a new writer can do that or an intermediate writer

where that's another system that everyone should have. Cause you know, that way you have a huge file of, you know, testimonials and results and quotes and pictures and just random stuff. know, feel like businesses of all types could be collecting more and they don't, they act like, I don't want to bother my customers, but they need that stuff to, for their copywriters to work with, you know, they don't have any.

They need to have the box of materials for the copywriter to dig into. And so, so the third tip is to make it a routine to collect that stuff. So what was tip number two? Did I miss it? Tip number one was don't make it a crisis. Tip number two was have a low risk job that you

try new copywriters on. Got it. Yeah. Low risk and fun. kind of have something where you bring like American writers and artists as an example, they have jobs that people can do that are a big deal. Like they'll have sales letters. Like they want to write a sales letter, then maybe Paul Hollingshead will write it or something and it'll, you

And if they really want to sell a lot of stuff, they'll hire someone who, who they really trust. But then there's, there's some easier jobs where brand new Raiders can get started and they'll be writing like articles or emails or just stuff like that. So, so there's, you know, just make it a little bit more obvious how new Raiders can get, try, get, get a try to get started. Yeah. Great.

Tony Stark Policci (52:37.417)
That's good. Good stuff, Mandy. Thank you very much. And as we wrap up here, I want to ask you, since you are part of this team, is there anything about the Copy Avengers that you think, you know, the whole concept of what we do kind of as a team is something that would be important for anyone who's watching this interview? You know, why, why would having a team, you know, work on your copy versus

any one of us individually, and I know we all do that, right? But what is the benefit to having maybe a team work on your project versus an individual copywriter? Well, everyone on the team is different. know, people have different skills. And when we get a new project in, we just get together and we discuss it and we put our ideas on the table.

And I think we were coming up with more ideas and better ideas than we would then either any, even us would, would come up with individually, you know, and it, it's just, it's a good practice to, to have the team look at something together and come up with different solutions. And then we can, you know, work to improve each other's work and stuff like that. So. Yeah, we've got the round table.

The round table. Yes. We're all going to discuss it and we're going to have our strategy session before we get started. And, and we're going to attack it from all angles, you know? And so I think it's, it's, I'm happy to be on the team. It's makes it more, it's more exciting to work, you know, as a team and to take on these projects. So anyway, thanks for having me on the team. man. I'm so grateful that you're part of it, you know.

to bring an awful lot to it. And I agree with you that working, a lot of copywriters work kind of in a vacuum, in isolation, you know? And Kevin Rogers did a great thing with his copy chief program, you know, his saying that no one writes alone, because I think that's something that's very needed. And, you know, I think what's different about what we do is,

Tony Stark Policci (55:01.383)
not only do we write alone, but we collaborate on our clients' ideas. And that old adage, two heads are better than one? Well, we have a lot of different ideas and we bring in many, many years of collective experience and perspective to really uncover and identify unique mechanisms, unique hooks, hidden benefits

things that give our clients absolute best advantage possible in presenting their offer and their message to the marketplace. And so I love that we have the ability to do that. Anyway, it's been great talking with you and I love the location that you chose for this interview because it's beautiful just like you are. So you got any last final things you want to share before we close

Nope, Excelsior. Excelsior, awesome. All right, Meandee Odette, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate you. And for those of you that, you know, please, if you watch this and you like it, give us a like, give us a thumbs up, subscribe to the channel, invite other people. And if there's anything that you need help with when it comes to your copywriting or marketing, please reach out to us. Our team is here to help

reach your goals and succeed in your business and your endeavors. And you will be very delighted with the results you get. So, till next time, thank you so much and Excelsior.

Tony Stark Policci (56:41.653)
to stop this